LOVE AND SPIRIT a conversation with Deepak Chopra

Love makes the world go around, or so the saying goes. No other living creature's offspring needs as much love and caring from it's mother as a human infant. None of us would grow up without love at the beginning. We've all received it, and we're all looking for it. What is this magic elixir of love all about? And why is so important to our lives? Dr. Deepak Chopra explores these questions in the following dialogue.

Deepak Chopra, founder and educational director of the Chopra Center for Well-Being in La Jolla, California, is a pioneer in helping individuals maximize their abilities to achieve success and fulfillment through mind-body techniques. A best-selling author and an internationally recognized motivational speaker, Chopra expands the concept of good health and self-knowledge through a blending of Western medicine and ancient Ayurvedic techniques from India. The basic tenet of Ayurveda is that one's physical health is the balanced integration of body, mind, and spirit.

His many books have sold nearly three million copies in English alone, and have been published in twenty-five languages. His books include The Way of the Wizard; The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, The New York Times bestseller Ageless Body, Timeless Mind; and his first novel, The Return of Merlin. He is also the author of The Path to Love: Renewing the Power of Spirit in Your Life (Harmony 1997).

Michael Toms: This is a departure for you in some sense, your books have been largely oriented to healing and the body, body-mind connection and so forth, and here you've gone on to the path of love. What motivated that?

Deepak Chopra: In many ways it is not a departure; it's a continuing evolution of the same exploration into the realm of consciousness and how it influences our lives, and particularly how it influences the healing process. I've become aware of a number of scientific studies that show very clearly the power of love to heal, to renew, to rejuvenate, and actually change your biological age. There is no doubt in my mind now that love heals, love renews, love makes you feel safe, love inspires you, love empowers you, love can bring you closer to God.

I've been looking at some of the medical evidence, which is absolutely astonishing. If you happen to have had a heart attack and a nurse or social worker calls you once a week on the phone for about a minute and says, "Mr. Smith, how are you doing? We care about you; we love you," your mortality rate post-infarction drops by 60%. That's with one phone call lasting less than a minute! If a drug did that and you didn't use it, you would be sued for malpractice. But such is our bias that this is not considered remarkably effective therapy.

There are other studies that show when nurses bond with cancer patients, particularly women with breast cancer, if they give loving support to each other, the survival rate of the patients doubles.

It's about time that we examined the phenomenon of love much more seriously than we've ever done before, because in a sense we're in a crisis. With racism and ethnocentrism and prejudice and bigotry and hatred and war and violence and terrorism, we are certainly suffering from a world deficiency of love.

MT: What's intriguing to me, Deepak, is that in the West, particularly in a highly materialistic culture like America, our concept of love doesn't really include the spiritual.

DC: Actually, what I'm saying is that love and spirit are the same force. That at the core of every being there is only love, because the core of every being is only spirit. The two are the same force--an abstract, unifying force in nature, not just in the human experience, but in nature. It's all pervasive. And we experience it in our lives in the flavors of human relationship--with attraction, infatuation, communion and courtship, intimacy and sexuality, surrender and non-attachment, and passion and ecstasy. These are the different flavors of love in human relationships that I've examined in this book. But my intent was to show that each of these is actually a window into the experience of the spirit as a real force.

MT: I want to take love into its aspect in relationship, because that's where I think most of us experience love. You wrote that partners are mirrors of ourselves, and so in falling in love we're falling in love with some aspect of ourselves.

DC: Yes, when we find delight in another person, we've actually found something joyful inside ourselves that involves a shift in our awareness, a shift in our perception, because the same person is not necessarily attractive to other people.
In relationship, whenever we're drawn to someone or repelled by someone, they're both mirrors of the self. We're attracted to people in whom we find traits that we want or desire in our own selves. And we are repelled by people in whom we find traits that we're denying in ourselves. So relationship is a true mirror of where we are in our evolution in consciousness.

In relationship then, you can either borrow those traits from your loved one, which would be a loving relationship born out of need--ultimately not a healthy situation. If it's born out of need it would lead to an addictive relationship.

On the other hand, we could decide to become those qualities. I'm drawn to this person because of her inner beauty, because of her naturalness, because of her affectionate nature, because of her tenderness, because of her nurturing qualities, because of her intuition and wisdom. Well then, these are the qualities I need to culture in my own self. So I don't borrow, I become.

Or I might be repelled by this person because he seems to be racist, he seems to be bigoted, he seems to be prejudiced, he seems to be angry and confrontational. I'm so charged by this, I must examine these qualities in my own self and see that, to some extent, I do have these, because everyone of us is a conglomeration of ambiguities of opposing archetypal energies. So if we have the divine, we also have the diabolical. If we have the sacred, we also have the profane. If we have the saint inside us, we also have the sinner inside us. We usually deny that, but it's true. We have forbidden lust and unconditional love at the same time. When we embrace our shadow energies, when we confront them, and we're honest about them, and we recognize that that's what is going on inside us, then we spontaneously become less judgmental of others. The best way to achieve that so-called exalted state of non-judgment is to confront your own shadows.

MT: Isn't it possible that, if we're falling in love with aspects of ourselves we're suppressing, we'll become dependent on the other person? Because we're still suppressing those things, and we're looking for them to be filled by the other person?

DC: Yes, and that's what happens frequently. That's why I said we can either borrow or we can become. And that's part of the whole stage of love that I address as communion--that's the third stage of love, the first two being attraction and infatuation. And in communion, if it is to succeed, there has to be a process of soul connecting to soul, spirit connecting to spirit. And, of course, body connecting to body, too, is part of the intimacy of the relationship. If you really want to connect on the level of soul, then there are three things that you must understand: equality, sensitivity and communication.

Equality means no one, no one in the world, is either superior or inferior to me at the level of spirit. We have different qualities of spirit, but we are equal. And when we are drawn to somebody, it is to mutually nourish each other. In order to cultivate that, we have to begin to become aware of what I just said--why we are drawn.

Sensitivity is the ability to know what is going on in the other person. Sensitivity implies that you are comfortable with the fact that people can be emotionally quite troubled and still be normal, and that emotions are frequently conflicting, confusing, paradoxical, contradictory. So when we make statements like, "I don't know what the heck is going on inside you," or "I don't see why you're reacting like this," or "I don't see why you're so emotionally charged about this," we're not really being sensitive. In order to be sensitive, we have to, at least for the time being, abandon the need to be right all the time. We have to abandon the need to be in control all the time. We have to, for the time being at least, ignore our own needs. That's what sensitivity means.

And communication is about exposing your own vulnerabilities, particularly your own fears. So, if you pay attention to these three qualities of communion: equality, sensitivity and communication, then you have a chance of connecting; otherwise, most relationships end up as co-dependent.

MT: Deepak, you wrote, "Surrender is the door to find passion." So that's really what you're talking about.

DC: Right, and when I speak of passion in love, I also mean passion in life. When you lose passion in love, then you lose passion for everything else, because life is an expression of that passion that you have in love. One of my favorite poets has been Rumi, whom I quote very frequently. He said the most important thing you can do in your life is to become a passionate lover, and if you are a passionate lover, then you'll be a lover in life, you'll be a lover in death, you'll be a lover in the tomb, you'll be a lover on the day of Resurrection, you'll be a lover in Paradise, and you'll be a lover forever. And if you've not been a passionate lover, then don't count your life as having been lived. Passion is crucial for existence. It is the source of our creativity. And passion is the next stage beyond detachment and surrender.

In the Hindu world view, from where I've borrowed a lot of my concepts, passion is the dynamic dance of the male and feminine energies of the universe, often symbolized as Shiva and Shakti.

The five male qualities and the energies of the universe are creation, protection, destruction (of that which is obsolete and effete and unnecessary and toxic), revelation and concealment. You can find these qualities in anything that's alive. Look at a flower and you see that there's that creative energy inside it; you see there's that energy that protects the integrity of it against the onslaughts of the environment; and you see that destructive energy which is getting rid of all the toxicity as it accumulates through strains and stresses. And at the same time, you see that the spirit is hiding within it, that's concealment. And if you're careful, and you look carefully, then you can see that the spirit is also shining through it. If you can't see spirit in a flower, or God in a flower, if you can't see God in the rainbow, or you can't find God in the blade of grass, or in the eyes of a being, you won't find God in a book of religion. God is life-centered, present-moment spirit in all that lives. God is passion. So those are the five male qualities.

The five female qualities, or the feminine qualities of the universe--often referred to as Shakti--are pure consciousness, pure bliss, pure knowledge (which means that knowledge which organizes and orchestrates the infinite correlative activity of the universe), pure action (action which is non-binding--doesn't have the bondage of karma. Action which has the bondage of karma comes from the ego. It's based on beliefs and expectations and interpretations and fears and judgments and past memories, whereas non-binding action, which is non-Karmic, is called kriya--action rooted in pure awareness and creativity. So you've gone beyond the being the bundle of conditioned reflexes that's either in a fight or flight mode. You're in the intuitive, in the creative, in the visionary and the sacred mode. And that's an expression of Shakti). And finally, of course, there is the expression of desire, the fifth female quality.
Desire is pure potentiality seeking manifestation.

When you have Shiva and Shakti dancing and in synchronicity with each other--the dynamic interplay of these energies--then you have the experience of passion, which is ultimately still a prelude to the state of ecstasy.

MT: Yes, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, there's the Vajrasattva, where you see the man entwined with the woman, and it's the same energy.

DC: Right, it's the same energy. In this book, I think for the first time in my writing, I've addressed the whole issue of sexuality and how it relates to spirituality. In our culture we have considered sex profane and love sacred, when in fact, sex is an aspect of love, and sexual energy is, in fact, the creative energy of the universe--so could it be spirit. I address that, very strongly, and make a good case for it, I think, because I examine the peak experience, for example, in sexuality, referred to as orgasm. You can see, if you examine the qualities of that experience, there's timelessness, there's loss of ego, there is naturalness, there is surrender, there is communion, there's lack of defensiveness and vigilance. These are sacred qualities, so peak experiences in physical love actually are a temporary window into the state of true liberation or freedom.

This is an insight into ecstasy. And ecstasy is an experience of primordial energy state. Have you seen babies? They spontaneously bubble with bliss sometimes. There's no reason, they just do it. That's a primordial energy state.

Addictive behavior is the number one disease in our civilization--it's not heart disease, not AIDS, and not cancer, but addiction. It is my belief, and the belief of a number of people who looked at the problem of addiction, that addictive behavior-- whether it's to drugs, food, alcohol, work, sex, or whatever-- is actually a search for ecstasy. I used to work in a VA Hospital and treated a lot of hard-core addicts. And they were the most spiritual people I've known in my life. Addicts are searching for what we're all searching for.

MT: That experience of Oneness.

DC: That experience of oneness, of the ecstatic state. The word ecstasy comes from the Greek word ectosis, which means, to step outside of the world of space, time, form and phenomenon into the experience of unboundedness, into a world that is causeless, timeless and eternal. That's what ecstasy truly means. And ultimately ecstasy is a combination of physical, mythological and sacred needs. When physical sensuality or sensory experience is carried to it's ultimate, you have ecstasy, whether it's in the physical contact or sensory delight.

But then there's another kind of ecstasy, which comes from our mythical motivations. Beneath the turmoil of our daily activity, our unconscious motivations dwell within the mythical world, In other words, inside us there are primal gods and goddesses. And we know this without knowing it, in that we act out our mythical drives without necessarily bringing them into our conscious awareness. So striving to succeed in the corporate takeover bid partakes of the hero's quest as much as the Argonaut seeking the golden fleece. Climbing Mt. Everest is driven by the same ambition--to reach the abode of the gods--as Icarus flying toward the sun. In mythical terms, ecstasy is a sacred journey into the underworld, or the unconscious. It's been portrayed in countless versions, from Persephone's abduction by Pluto to Orpheus seeking his bride in the shades of Hades.

Why don't we know this? Because we are actually acting out our mythical needs. The reason is, we're so caught up by the trivial and the mundane in our daily activity. Ulysses didn't have to commute through tangled traffic every day. And Athena's mind wasn't full of worries about meeting the mortgage this month. And yet there is such a primal need for this kind of ecstasy.

We are an emotionally and spiritually bankrupt civilization right now, because we've lost mythology. Joseph Campbell once said, mythology is much more important than history. If you want to know a people, understand their mythology.

So, there's physical ecstasy, then there's mythical ecstasy, and finally there's sacred ecstasy. Sacred ecstasy comes from stepping out of our ordinary states of waking, dreaming and sleeping consciousness into what has been called glimpsing the soul, or cosmic consciousness, divine consciousness, unity consciousness. When Walt Whitman says "I must not be awake now, for everything looks to me as it never did before. Or else I'm awake for the first time, and all that was before was just a dream," he's talking about the transcendent, and, of course, the great writers and philosophers like Thoreau and Emerson (from this tradition) and, of course, all the great sages of the East, have spoken of the same thing. When you have the combination of all three--physical, mythical, and sacred--then you have true bliss consciousness.

Read the Song of Solomon and the Torah when Solomon says, "You split me open, you tore my heart and poured your love into me. You poured your spirit and filled me with it. I knew you as I know myself. My eyes are radiant with your light; my nostrils filled with your fragrance. My ears delight with your music and my face is covered with your dew. You have made all things new. You have made me see all things shinning. You have granted me perfect ease. I have become like Paradise." Here in the Torah, in the Book of Genesis itself, we find the best description of ecstasy. And that is the final culmination of the experience of love.

MT: Pretty powerful stuff.

DC: Right, that's why it heals!

MDP: Great stuff, my dear Deepak! You´re the best!
I have one more question, though, I know you have a bit of dislike against laywers, so I have read in your books, also doing the audioprogram´s, Love ´em!
I even Spammed her parents with an imported DVD box of yours!
(couldn´t get it on time for Christmas 2004, though,
those postal workers..!),
anyhow,
can´t blame you, I don´t like ´em myself too, Laywers,
I mean, way too big of Ego´s for my happy state of being,
bliss and all,
but ya know, a man gotta make a livin´ somehow, right?
and they´re always good for a goodasswhoppin´,
As I often gladly do, with a lot of experiece as THE (!) former
Babysiter on the Erasmus International Student House,
were I had the pleasure to ´assist´ 250 students from all over the world!
and their Ego´s, (as our good friend Tony would say Ego in, God out!)
they did not leave home!
(nor their daddy´s wallets...),
why they all dig Amsterdam soo much?, beatz me!,
probaply on seach for an ´enlightend state´ of ...
whatever!,
I only do Wodka, being from Poland and loving to sing,
can´t help myself!, must be something Polish,
as you can read below, some Polish songs, but with the voice I have,
You gotta have some (wodka) down, otherwise,
the next day, you don´t have an alibi for your friends...;)
anyway,
back to the core apple pie courtship business,
what we are doing here,
the question,
right,
what was,
To sue or not to sue?
(that is the question...)
What do you think Deepak? when the intentions are noble?
(the girl, I mean, sue the girl...?)
to the altaar, church, wedding chapel!
(offcourse)
For me it would be putting the Law of Least effort into practise,
but...
Because above and below, I have posted some words about Love,
´You Found Your Soulmate, Now What?´
and then we got Wayne messing with the mind,
talking bout your soulmate is the one you realy can´t stand,
thank god, she´s a capricorn, so once I catch this ´unique´ divine being,
they marry for life, so the stars told me,
but I must say, she doesn´t give up easely!
Good to be a scorpio and all, the most powerfull of all signs,
and besides, there´s no power stronger then love, right?
and stuff, so could you answer my question in that context?,
please?, (so, you don´t get me wrong)
Spamm me,
With the highest regards,
Big fan,
See you at a seminar Soon!
We´ll do some Yoga afterwards!
I´m gonna start the Ayur Vedic Cooking soon!
Say Hi (five) to Tony for me!
Missed out on the last UPW in London, but I´m there the next one!
WITH PASSION!!!!!